对潘德的预言作者——“Saxondragon”的采访

后退与砍杀

Saxondragon

萨克森龙

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Papa of Prophesy of Pendor - Game Designer

潘德的预言的父亲——游戏设计师

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相对于之前的两篇采访，龙爷的这篇采访帖用的高级语法、词汇较多，意思也比较深入，还有点稍专业的术语（不过相对于真正的专业文章，这还算口语水平那种简单级别了），所以比较差强人意，不过基本不会影响大体意思。

1.) Hello, Saxondragon. You are a legendary modder of many years and the creator of one of the most popular warband mod, Prophesy of Pendor. So, lets start with an introduction of yourself for those who don’t know you.

问：你好，萨克森龙。据我所知，你是一位具有多年MOD制作经验的传奇人物，而且还是当下最流行的MOD之一，潘德的预言的创作者。那么，现在让我们来向那些还并不了解你的人，来介绍下你自己吧。

Answer:   Hello Efe, thank you for the interview.  My real name is Jim Landes and I am a game designer.  Currently I teach digital game development at a college in the United States and also I am a founder of a small development group Gwythdarian where we are in the process of creating our first web based offering.  I started in the business many years ago in the early 1980’s when the industry was fledgling and I have been involved with maybe a half a dozen companies since.

答：你好，Efe，谢谢你对我的采访。我的真名叫吉姆·兰德斯（Jim Landes），是一名游戏设计师。我目前在美国的一所大学里教授电子游戏开发，我还是一个叫“Gwythdarian”小型开发团队的创始人，我们在那里建立了我们第一个基于Web的产品。早在20世纪80年代，电子产业才刚刚兴起时，我就已经投入到商界里许多年了，而在这之前，我就已经在好几家公司里呆过了。

2.) How did you get started on modding this sequel for the first time? Did you have any past experiences? Why did you want to mod this game?

问：你第一次是怎样开始接触MOD制作方面的呢？在此之前，你是否拥有相关经验？是什么原因促成了你想为这款游戏制作出一个MOD？

Answer:  The short answer this many pronged question is that I wanted to return to entertainment software after a very long hiatus.  In 1993 I sold my Play-by-mail game company (think of MMO’s before the internet), returned to the university for a few years, then subsequently worked in Business to Business software for over 10 years.   I wanted to return to my roots so to speak and needed to demonstrate that I still had relevant skills in this field.   I chose Prophesy of Pendor and Taleworlds Mount&Blade and subsequently Warband to be the vehicle that would ultimately enable a career change.

答：对这些不太相同的问题，我可以简单来讲。在离开了娱乐软件制作的行业很久之后，我想再回到过去的地方了。1993年，我卖掉了我的信息游戏公司（可以被认为是互联网诞生之前的一种大型多人在线游戏）后，回了几年大学，随后我在B2B软件行业上工作超过了10年的时间。

叶落归根，可以这么说，而且我还想表明，我在这一领域内还是能发挥重要作用的。我之所以选择潘德的预言和Taleworlds的骑马与砍杀原版，以及之后发布的战团，是因为这是一个能够使我完成职业转换的媒介工具。

3.) So, Pendor. What was your drive behind while creating this world? How could you create such a diverse and an in-depth world, that is loved by so many people? Did you start on world-building before actual production began?

问：那么，是什么重要因素促成你创造出潘德这个世界？你是如何创造出这么一个变化多端且具有深度的，且受众人所喜爱的世界呢？在MOD被做出来之前，你是否就已经开始架构起这个世界呢？

Answer: Thank you for that compliment.  Pendor was created on the fly in November through December in 2008, then finalized through June 2009.  Most elements were from past personal role-playing worlds I had created, some of it was influenced by authors such as Roger Zelazny, Michael Moorcock, Robert Jordan, and Joel Rosenburg to name a few.  Other elements were derived from discussions on quantum mechanics and some elements were sparked from the open source artwork available at the time.  

答：谢谢你对潘德的赞同。在2008年11月到12月期间，潘德的制作忙得飞起。最后是在2009年6月才最终定型。其中大多数元素，都是来自于我以前就已经写好的个人角色扮演类的世界里，这其中我还受到了一些别的作者的影响，比如像罗杰·泽拉兹尼（Roger Zelazny）、迈克尔·摩考克（Michael Moorcock），罗伯特·乔丹（Robert Jordan），以及乔尔·罗森堡（Joel Rosenburg）等。其它的一些元素是来源于在量子力学方面上的讨论，以及一些开源艺术品所引发出的灵感。

As more team members with varied degrees of experience came on board, they helped breathe life into areas such as the D’Shar and made them more real.   I should also point out that one writer, whom you know here on the forums as M0rdred, was especially adept at taking over arching story concepts and filling them in with fascinating and detailed history.   Mason Purcell aka Fawzia dokhtar-i-sanjar, was also a key member who’s unparalleled knowledge of history and culture played a significant role in the world development at this time.

此时，制作团队里还迎来了许多拥有不同经验水平的成员，他们让这个世界变得更为鲜活，比如：他们让达夏变得更为真实。说到这里，我不得不提到一个写手，他在论坛里的知名度就如同莫德雷德（亚瑟王的侄子）一般，他对编写多线性故事的概念掌握地十分牢固，并能运用其创造出一段令人着迷且细节生动的历史。“Mason Purcell aka Fawzia dokhtar-i-sanjar”对历史文化有着无比深厚的了解，在这段开发时期里，她对这个世界的架构扮演着无比重要的角色。

World building is about laying out an overarching concept, preferably one that has a premise that is intellectually engaging.  Then filling in the details and the struggles, aspirations, hopes and fears of those that live in the world and conveying their limited, flawed and often biased worldview.  This makes the world, and the characters living in it, seem real.

世界的架构是最首要的规划项目，前提是它最好能够充分地吸引住人。 接下来便是完善各种细节，以及各种生活在这个世界里的人物的奋斗、壮志、希望、恐惧等心里想法，并传达出他们对世界了解的局限、缺陷、以及各种偏见。这使得这个世界及生活在里面的人物，看起来栩栩如生。

4.) What was it like working on Pendor? What was your main role? How was the team atmosphere like? Did you face too many challenges?
问：你觉得在潘德的预言项目里工作感觉怎样？你主要扮演怎样的角色？团队氛围如何？你是否曾面临过太多的挑战？

Answer: It started with just myself and a proof of concept in late 2008.  From there I gave myself 6 months to work on a 2.0 release to implement as many features as I could.  Up to this point I had rarely worked in such a distributed development environment much less with all part-time unpaid volunteers and most of whom you did not know, except for a user name.  To further complicate matters, most of those were working in a non-native language, which posed additional communication and collaboration issues.

答：2008年下半年刚开始的时候，只有我一个人利用一些初始的概念文本来开展项目。从这时起，我给自己6个月的时间来准备2.0版本的发布，并尽可能地完成我力所能及的特性。

我以前几乎从未工作在这样一个需要把精力分散到各个方面的环境中，更别提这还是一个需要投入所有业余时间，知名度几乎为0（除了用户名外），一分钱都拿不到的志愿项目。 后来，团队成员为了讨论更复杂深入的问题，他们常常不得不舍弃母语来交谈，这也给沟通及合作带来了不少麻烦。

From a leadership perspective this became a challenge.  I was surprised that so many individuals answered the call I put out for help.   I was hoping for three or four people, but over the years, scores of folks stepped up to help out to one degree to another.  We have over 240 people registered on our development forum today.

从领导方面来看，这的确是个挑战。我很惊奇有如此多人响应了我寻求开发帮助的呼唤。我最开始想有3-4个人就不错了，但这些年来，人们纷至沓来帮助我们解决了一项又一项的问题。今天，我们的开发论坛上已经有了超过240名注册成员。


What I quickly learned was the vast majority of folks who play games do not have the fortitude to create them. For every 6 people who joined the development team, only 1 would produce something and maybe one out of 30 would become what I would term a “core member” and continue with the project.   Some would come and go as their life situations changed.

但我很快了解到，绝大多数玩游戏的人都没有坚强的毅力去创造游戏。每6个加入开发团队的人里，只有1个人能做出点实实在在的东西。超过30个人里才能诞生出1名能够持之以恒的人，也就是我所称之为的“核心成员”，有些人当生活情况发生变化后，他们来了不久后就走了。


The model that emerged from this experience was the main coder, or “Implementer” was the center of the development effort who also served as a producer who organized others to get specific tasks completed which they had passion around.  The main challenge, which is true for any development efforts, is the effort is limited by the skills of the people who are attached to the project.   

许多典范的代码员，以及开发工作的核心——“实施者”都从这次经历中开始浮现，他们也是组织其他对特定工作有热情的人的生产者。但最主要的挑战，是由于那些接触项目的人能力的局限性，而导致工作效率大打折扣，这也是所有开发工作所面临的事实。


5.) Was world of Pendor meant only for a warband mod? Or, did you create this world with thoughts-in-mind like turning this into a sequel or a brand of some sort, like Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings?

潘德世界里的故事只在战团MOD里展现过吗？或者说，你当初把脑海里的想法变成一个活脱脱的世界时，你是否有想把它做成一个系列，或把它变成像变成权力的游戏，及指环王那样那样的著作？

Answer: It was created just for Mount&Blade/Warband.  However, the popularity has inspired the possibility of a novel and I am investigating subsequent entertainment offerings around this intellectual property.

答：我当初仅仅只是把它当做骑马与砍杀/战团的一个MOD来制作。 不过，就目前的流行性来看，把它变成一本小说也不是没可能，我正在考虑要不要围绕着这一知识结晶来开发一些周边产品。

6.) Since I know you are mainly affiliated with your own company, Gwythdarian. Is this something that long-existed before you started modding or after?

问：我已经了解到你一般都在忙于你的公司——Gwythdarian的一些事物，不过在制作这个MOD之前，你是否还在别的某些事情上像这样坚持过？

Answer: Gwythdarian was launched after the release of POP and within two years of having relocated to Michigan.
答：Gwythdarian公司是在潘德的预言发布后才成立的，而公司迁到密歇根州已经有2年了。


7.) Do you think your modding experience influenced you in any way? Maybe, your professional career or your studies? Was it purely a hobby for you?
问：你认为mod制作是否对你产生了某些影响呢？比如，你的专业工作或者研究方面？或者说他对你来说仅仅只是个爱好？

Answer: The answer to the first part of this question is a resounding yes.   What impressed me the most was that a team of people, who never met, came together and created such an amazing piece of work over a period of years.

答：第一个问题的答案是“肯定”的，最令我感动的是我的团队成员们，他们之间从未谋面，从未相聚，但他们能在此坚持好几年，并做出一个如此令人惊叹的作品。

This taught me that a virtual company, working with volunteers was possible.  It is a model I have incorporated into the first offering of Gwythdarian.   A methodology where we break the traditional client-artist relationship so that the creative vision can be fully realized and that the people who put the work into a project reaps the majority of the rewards for the success of the project.  

这件事告诉我，在一个虚拟的公司里和一群奉献者一起工作是有可能的。这确实是个典范，我已经将这种模式运用到了Gwythdarian公司的第一个开发项目里了，我们已经找到了一种新方法，来打破传统的客户——艺术家的关系，以便具有创意的版本能够被充分地实现。那些参与进项目工作里的人，能够得到成功项目所带来的报酬。

I have been involved in several startups and young companies where the client who holds the purse strings manages to destroy the project by demanding changes that they do not understand.   Many existing games have fallen victim to this sort of behavior and the results are always disastrous.

我曾加入过一些刚起步的新公司，它们因为对某个项目做出了一些让人难以理解的改变，所以被那些手握钱袋的客户给谴责、攻击了。许多还存活下来的游戏都因为这些行为而成了受害者，这个结果可想而知是灾难性的。

The other salient piece that bubbled up in this process of making Prophesy of Pendor, was the realization that modding was not sustainable.  Like making games or playing them, this is not done in a vacuum.  We all have to work to put food on the table, pay mortgages and save for our retirements.  Very few people are in a financial position that will enable them to put thousands of hours into projects indefinitely.  Most will do so for a specific reason, such as building a portfolio to get a job, and over a specific period of time.  

在潘德的预言制作过程中，我们还遇到过一些未曾考虑过的情况，比如mod制作可能不会永久进行下去。就像玩游戏一样，这不可能心想事成。我们所有人都是为了填饱肚子，为了偿还贷款，为我们的退休生活存款而工作的。

极少人有充实的家境，来为一个不确定的项目投入数千小时的劳动时间。大多数人都只有在目标确定后才开始行动的，比如说为了得到一份工作，而腾出点时间做些准备。

After that period, they will move into professional jobs that take up all of their time.   We all have problems to solve in real life, and it takes most of our effort to address them.  The only way to make modding scalable and sustainable is to find a way to compensate the modder for their time.   This is why great modders enter the scene, then leave, most never to return.

过了这段特殊的求职时期后，他们就会全身心地把精力都投入到专业工作里去了。 我们所有人在现实生活中都会遇到些麻烦，它们会耗费我们不少精力来解决它们。

为了使mod的制作变得有意义且能持续下去，唯一的办法就是找到条好路子，来补偿他们在现实生活中失去的时间。这就是为什么有那么多优秀的mod制作者来了，走了，之后永远也不会再回来了。

I worked on a project for a few years that solved this problem in an elegant way but we were never able to fund the project and it was shelved.
我曾在一个项目上工作了几年，并以一种利落的方式来解决了这个问题。但我们从未选择资助过这个项目，所以它最后被荒废了。


8.) Are you working on any project at the moment? A warband mod, indie game or maybe a glorious return to Bannerlord with something completely new?
问：请问你现在是否还在为某个项目而工作吗？比如说，某个战团mod，独立游戏，或者是等到霸主发行时凯旋归来，并给我们带来一个全新的礼物？

Answer: Yes, all of my spare time is taken up with a development effort through Gwythdarian.  We are working on a web based persistent interstellar odyssey called StariumXCV.   
I wish to be mindful of Taleworlds so I, with respect and deference, will not go deeper into this effort here.

答：没错，我的所有闲暇时间都放在“Gwythdarian”公司里的开发工作上去了。我们正在开发一个基于网页的叫“StariumXCV”永恒星际漫游的项目。 我希望我能尽可能地带着些许敬意与尊重，来关注“Taleworlds”公司，而不是把精力更深入地投入到这里。

9.) What is your favourite warband mod? Why do you like it? Also, is there any project that caught your attention lately?
问：你有自己喜欢过的战团mod吗？你为什么喜欢它？或者说，近期是否有什么新的mod吸引住了你的目光呢？

Answer:  Prophesy of Pendor honestly.  I have played many others, but they just do not hold my attention for long.  Mostly I play to gain insights into unique features and understand what I like and do not like to build a more robust body of knowledge for future designs.

答：老实说，我只喜欢过自己做的潘德的预言。 当然我也玩过不少别的mod，但它们都不能够长久地吸引住我。大多数情况下，我都是从深入了解其mod特性，及那些我喜欢或讨厌的部分，来领悟出一些自己的见解，并为我以后的设计来打下更多坚实的背景知识基础。

10.) What is your overall impression of the modding community of this game?
问：你对这个游戏的Mod制作交流区的总体印象如何？

Answer:   There are many amazingly talented people here and the possible potential is astounding.   I have found the modding community to be helpful and by and large promoted by people who want to create the best possible offerings.  
答：这里有许多令人惊叹的天才，且蕴含着令人震叹的潜能。我认为这个mod制作交流区是有帮助的，那些想创造出完美作品的人们十分积极地带动了这里的气氛。


11.) And - lastly. Would you like to say anything to creative people who’re reading this interview at the moment? :)
问：嗯，最后，你是否想对那些正在阅读这篇采访帖的聪明脑袋们说些什么？

Answer:  So much to say, so little time and space.  I will limit myself to 6 points.
答：我有太多想说的了，但我的空间和时间都不多了。我想把我自己总结为以下6点。

   First,: Just do it.  If you want to utilize your skills, then offer to help an existing team.  Be persistent.  Get stuff done.  Focus on execution.  Facilitate the success of the modding team lead.  Be open to change, and especially as an artist and writer, your work will change... always.

  第一：只管去做好了。如果你想发挥自己的技能，来帮助那些mod制作团队。保持耐心，重于行动，把活干完。促进mod制作团队的成功，要勇于改变，尤其是美工和编者，你们的工作... 永远都在变化。

   Second: Check your ego at the door.  Realize that at any given moment an idea or thought you may have, is not who you are.  If an idea is rejected, then it is the idea or concept that is rejected, not you.  You have more value than a million ideas.  Do not shut down or feel resentment if your concept is modified, or rejected.  Keep your eye on the ending release, and what you can do to make it better.  

  第二：做事前要认清自我。不管你是谁，在任何时刻你都有可能拥有新的主意或想法。如果你的想法被别人驳斥了，那你要认识到，被驳斥的是你的想法，而不是你自己。你自身的价值要比百万个想法要高的多。如果你的规划被别人修改，甚至拒绝了。不要气馁，也不要愤恨。把精力都集中在最终发布，及那些你力所能及的能够做到最好的事情上去。

   Third: No one has all of the answers.  Feel content if you even know what questions to ask.  Every single time I have had an amazing concept I throw it out to my team and they make it better.  Not a few times, not sometimes, but every-single-time.   What goes with this process is to listen to your team and what they say and understand why they are taking a particular position.   Listening is a primary skill here.

  第三：没有人是真正的百事通，如果你已经清楚问题是什么的话，那你就可以满足了。每当我产生了一个绝妙的主意后，我都会先把它扔给我的团队成员，因为他们能够把它做得更好。这不是极端事件，也不是偶尔事件，实际上我经常这么干。 如果你想知道此事后续将如何发展的话，你只需要听听你的团队成员在说些什么，并理解他们为什么要持这种观点。 在这里，倾听是一个首要的技能。

   Fourth: How to make great games.  This is a bit outside the scope of the question, but the key can be summed into a few short sentences.  
You are creating an experience that your players will consume as they eat a meal.   Remember always that your players consume your content.   There is the early game (appetizer), mid game (main course) and end game (desert).   You must design for all three phases of play.  

The most helpful key in design is to create never ending relevant unanswered questions for your player.  Systems that interact in interesting ways will add longevity and popularity to your offering.  What Taleworlds have done is to provide a solid platform to build upon and with the OSP resources, there is almost infinite possibilities.   

  第四：如何制作出色的游戏。这有点超出了问题的范围，但关键可以归结为几个短句。 你正在创造出一种玩家将会体验到的过程，就如同他们在享用食物一样。 记住，享受你的产品的永远是你的玩家。 游戏早期是开胃菜，游戏中期是主菜，游戏结束是一片荒芜。 基此你得设计出游戏的三个阶段。

Fifth: Be mindful of the Return of Investment (ROI) of your time.   Do not spend 100 hours on a design that will give a player 3 minutes of “consumption”.  Always ask “What is the return for my time spent?  What will the player experience?  Is it worth the effort?”
Lastly: Ideas have no value until there is work put into them.   Having a “Great Idea” is nice but to be brutally honest, you have to be able to execute on that idea in order for it to be taken seriously.   

See the first point: Get stuff done.

第五：注意你的时间投资回报率（ROI）。 不要花费100个小时进行设计，让玩家获得3分钟的“享用”。 而是要时刻提醒自己：“我付出的时间得到了哪些回报呢？ 玩家将体验到什么？ 这值得努力吗？”

最后：在将它们付诸行动之前，创意没有任何价值。 拥有一个“好主意”是很不错，但老实说，你想认真对待它的话，就必须得动手实现这个想法。

看第一点：把活干完。


相关链接：

1.对新星纪元MOD作者——“Quintillius”的采访

2.对1257AD作者——“DrTomas”的采访

liguang

SD是一个真的将游戏作为神圣事业的老师，在他眼里游戏是一种艺术品而不仅仅是打发时间的玩物，其寓教于乐思想使我受益匪浅，跟他的交流中的这一句话我认为对各位潜在的Moder甚至游戏制作者很有用：

"Once you release your product, it belongs to the player, not the designers."

“一旦你发布了你的作品，这就不再属于作者，而是玩家。”

可惜的是由于忙于事务无法亲任潘德当前的更新维护......3.7的加快大军刷新/降低难度/调整等级/提升潘德系实力等都为后续更新提供了更新方向，他本人甚至支持在游戏中出现“入侵”，“大BOSS”，例如复活潘德初代国王作为玩家最后考验的想法就是他自己提出的。

提到页游估计大家想到的都是各种炫酷华丽的圈钱游戏，然而SD当前正在忙的页游是一个知识密集型，画面也不酷炫的叫做stariumxcv的游戏.....老实说我很担心老人家这个游戏的前景的...

现在SD应该快60了吧，结合其资历和人脉和潘德近几年斩获的口碑，希望能在砍2上一鸣惊人。

这个需要注意下：
Mason Purcell aka Fawzia dokhtar-i-sanjar

是一个女性，应该是“她”，这个人在2011年2月左右就去世了，她在官网发了4300个帖子，以至于去世了8年日均发帖还是大于1，可见其在当时的重要性，现在为了缅怀这个人潘德区的视频截图楼还是她当年发的帖子，可以说她借助活跃的截图/视频分享者继续活在她爱的地方吧。


不过说实在的跟SD接触有一个侧面影响就是打破了我对美国人生活质量的印象......SD是一个有双学位，30年工作经验的教师和资深游戏设计人，在60岁高龄的时候还得打两份全职工作，自己还要码代码，甚至学习语言，养活自己身体不太好的太太和两个孩子。

后退与砍杀

liguang 发表于 2019-1-18 15:58
SD是一个真的将游戏作为神圣事业的老师，在他眼里游戏是一种艺术品而不仅仅是打发时间的玩物，其寓教于乐思 ...

OK，如果有别的地方有毛病可以指出来。

另外
I have been involved in several startups and young companies where the client who holds the purse strings manages to destroy the project by demanding changes that they do not understand.   Many existing games have fallen victim to this sort of behavior and the results are always disastrous.

这句话和后面说的
Remember always that your players consume your content
感觉有点儿自相矛盾，所以不知道他的意思是游戏到底是为自己，还是为别人设计的？

liguang

应该是说他参与的项目。

大猫头

stariumxcv网页，上世纪画风

wz200283

不得不说骑砍圈真的是人才济济

Horizonwalker

This taught me that a virtual company, working with volunteers was possible.  It is a model I have incorporated into the first offering of Gwythdarian.   A methodology where we break the traditional client-artist relationship so that the creative vision can be fully realized and that the people who put the work into a project reaps the majority of the rewards for the success of the project.  

这件事告诉我，在一个虚拟的公司里和一群奉献者一起工作是有可能的。这确实是个典范，而且他们也成为了Gwythdarian公司的第一批员工（？），我们已经找到了一种新方法，来打破传统的客户——艺术家的关系，以便具有创意的版本能够被充分地实现。那些参与进项目工作里的人，能够得到成功项目所带来的报酬。

这里的 It is a model I have incorporated into the first offering of Gwythdarian.翻译的并不准确。在这里潘德的其他作者明显没有加入SD的新公司。SD这里的意思是“a virtual company, working with volunteers（一个虚拟公司里和一群志愿者一起工作）“的model(模式）被他用在了Gwythdarian的首批员工里。

basehead

respect.......

adsays

…………………

土耳其

respect，respect，respect

hellux

潘德4如果变成收费DLC的话也没有问题啊